Especially when both use the same diameter bullet?
Which is .357 if you didn't know.
Believe it or not this story starts back before the Civil War and the Colt Patterson pistol was first designed. The Colt Patterson was a .36 caliber cap and ball revolver using a round ball with a diameter of .365-.375. Depending on the bullet/ball mold used. The bullet/ball was slightly oversized to ensure a tight fit in both the cylinder and the barrel. Forcing the ball into the chamber would shave a thin slice of lead from the ball leaving a ring of lead behind.
As time progressed, Colt updated and modified his designs, giving us the Colt Walker, Dragoon, Navy and Army. The Walker, Dragoon and Army were in .44 caliber using a .445-.450 diameter ball, and the Navy using the same .365-.375 as the Patterson.
During the Civil War, cartridge firearm designs and conversions started to come into their own.
One of the most popular conversion designs converted the Colt Navy to a .38 caliber. However the .38 caliber wasn't for the bullet diameter, but the cartridge case diameter.
Many of the early .38 cartridges used a heeled bullet, similar to the .22 short, Long and Long Rifle of today, meaning the bullet had a narrow base that fit down inside the cartridge. And being a soft lead bullet, as it was forced through the forcing cone of the pistol, it engaged the rifling in the barrel better, giving it a better gas seal. The reason for the heeled bullet was it was difficult to crimp the cartridge into the bullet without a special and expensive tool, outside of an ammunition factory. Using heeled bullets, meant that users could reload their own cases in the field without many tools, besides a nail and a wooden dowel.
The original .38 Colt as it was known is now known as the .38 Colt Short As Colt came out with new and more robust designs, he lengthened the cylinder and introduced the .38 Colt Long as used in Colt M1877 Lightning. It was the US Army's use of the .38 Long Colt against the Philippine Moro's in their Colt M1892's which showed the cartridges inadequacies and which helped lead to the development of the .45 ACP.
However, as an attempt to salvage all of those .38 caliber firearms, Smith and Wesson developed from the .38 Colt Long, the .38 S&W Special in 1898.
So, that got us from the Colt Patterson to the .38 Special. But where did the .357 Magnum come in?
Well it starts with a man named Elmer Keith.
If you are big into shooting and you don't know who Elmer Keith is, you really need to box your ears and heigh thy butt to the library.
Elmer Keith is the FATHER of Magnums. Without his input, it is doubtful we wouldn't have the .357 Magnum, the .44 Magnum and many other things such as bullet designs, and the various types of reloading powders.
But in 1934, at the urging of Elmer Keith with Phil Sharpe, Douglas Wesson of Smith & Wesson, designed the .357 Magnum.
It still used the same .357 diameter bullet and the same .38 diameter case, however it was longer than it's parent case the .38 Special by 3.2 mm so it cannot be loaded in a .38 Special chambered firearm.
So there you have it. A brief primer on why the .38 special and the .357 Magnum both use the same diameter bullet.
And as a safety note, while you can in some .38 Special firearms, chamber the British .38/200 also known as the .38 S&W it is extremely unsafe to do so as the .38 S&W uses a .361 diameter bullet and the chamber pressures would be extremely unsafe to do so. However a firearm chambered for .38 S&W can safely chamber and fire .38 Colt Long and .38 Colt Short. Just not very accurately. NOTE: I said SAFELY, this means you CANNOT fire the .38 Special from a .38 S&W firearm SAFELY. It has to do with how fast the propellant burns and the pressure curves. .38 Special develops too much pressure too fast, for the alloys of most available .38 S&W firearms. Remember, everytime you fire a firearm, the pressure makes the chamber expand just a tiny bit. then it shrinks back down. The .38 special's pressure curve is too fast for the older .38 S&W chambered firearms metallurgy. And while you might be able to fire a dozen or so cylinder fulls of .38 Specials, each time you do, you are forcing the chambers a little bit more out of spec. Until one day you pull the trigger and the cylinder becomes a small hand grenade in your hand. Think of an old Webley MK VI with a shaved cylinder to use .45 ACP's. You can use low pressure low velocity .45 ACP ammunition in it. But if you load a high velocity round in it, you have just destroyed your cylinder if not the whole firearm and possibly your hand or eyes.
And remember this, Your Mileage May Very and don't take what I write here as gospel. Be sure you have any older firearm checked by a competent gunsmith to be sure it is safe to fire ANY ammunition out of.
I make no claim to be an “Expert”, just a very talented amateur.
The Replica Prop Forum
Very cool site I am also a member of
Showing posts with label .38 Special. Show all posts
Showing posts with label .38 Special. Show all posts
Sunday, November 10, 2019
Saturday, March 26, 2016
Took youngest daughter aka Sprog #4 shooting yesterday
to familiarize her with my Mossberg 185, 20 ga bolt action shotgun, and also to put some rounds through my Rossi Model 461-03 3", .357 Magnum.
I will say that Brenneke makes some very HARD recoiling slugs for 20 ga. And I am VERY glad I changed the grips that came with the Rossi to Pachmayr's. Shooting full power 158 gr .357 Mag from the Rossi is also painful, however 158 gr .38 special is actually quite pleasant.
I'll be getting some 125 gr .357 Mag to see if the Rossi is more enjoyable to shoot, but for now I'll be sticking to .38 Special loads for it until I do.
I also need to get another choke for the Mosberg, it uses an external choke tube and the only one I've got now is Full, and I really need to get an IC or Modified for it to be ale to use it to it's fullest extent.
Also Tula ammo is D-I-R-T-Y, but it's actually pretty accurate at across the room distance.
So I need to get out the cleaning kit and clean up the Rossi, my daughter is borrowing the Mosberg 185, so she gets to clean it herself.
I will say that Brenneke makes some very HARD recoiling slugs for 20 ga. And I am VERY glad I changed the grips that came with the Rossi to Pachmayr's. Shooting full power 158 gr .357 Mag from the Rossi is also painful, however 158 gr .38 special is actually quite pleasant.
I'll be getting some 125 gr .357 Mag to see if the Rossi is more enjoyable to shoot, but for now I'll be sticking to .38 Special loads for it until I do.
I also need to get another choke for the Mosberg, it uses an external choke tube and the only one I've got now is Full, and I really need to get an IC or Modified for it to be ale to use it to it's fullest extent.
Also Tula ammo is D-I-R-T-Y, but it's actually pretty accurate at across the room distance.
So I need to get out the cleaning kit and clean up the Rossi, my daughter is borrowing the Mosberg 185, so she gets to clean it herself.
Saturday, January 2, 2016
Rossi Model 461-03 3 inch .357 Magnum
Edit at bottom.
One of the things I got for myself this year was a firearm type I've wanted for a VERY long time.
I've wanted a 6 shot 3 inch barrel .357 Magnum Revolver for many years. IAMMO had one. A Rossi Model 461, for $279.00. So I jumped on it, and with shipping it cost me $307.00.
After picking it up at my Sooper Sekrit Gunstore, after filling out my Form 4473, getting my NICS Background check and paying my paperwork fee, I brought it home and closely examined it.
This is a preliminary inspection. Granted this is an inexpensive revolver compared to Smith & Wesson, Colt or Dan Wesson, but there are a few issues, which while not a deal breaker, make this particular pistol less appealing to me.
The issues:
a.) It does NOT have a full length ejector rod. That is one of the reasons I wanted a 3 inch barrel. S&W, Colt, Dan Wesson, those have a full length ejector rod on their 3 inch barreled revolvers.
b.) The cylinder pawl is very rough, giving the trigger on double action a gritty feeling, and you can feel the grittiness when hand cocking it for single action.
c.) The Ejector lips for the case rim in 2 of the chambers was so rough that a cartridge could not be fully loaded nor easily ejected.
d.) The hard rubber grips are a bit too small and smooth. I'm concerned about maintaining proper control under full recoil with Magnum loads.
e.) The "Hammer Nose" firing pin. It does have a hammer blocking bar to the prevent the hammer from striking the primer, but I'd prefer the "Transfer Bar" firing pin.
f.) The cylinder release is smaller and angled. It's just a tad small for my liking. I can imagine if my hands are sweaty, my thumb wouldn't fully depress the release fully to open the cylinder.
g.) Hammer safety lock and it's "Key"
The assets:
a.) It IS a 3 inch revolver with a round butt and Pachmayr does make their gripper grips for it. Pachmayr grips are a little "tackier" feeling and should be just a little bit larger than the factory grips.
b.) After working the action a few hundred times after marking the pawl up with a sharpie marker, I was able to smooth the bad parts of the pawl, making the trigger much better and removing most of the grittiness. It will only get better with use.
c.) The ejector lips were smoothed by simply using some fired nickle plated cases, and forcing them in and ejecting them a few dozen times. The fired cases will still slightly stick in those two chambers, but loaded rounds now just fall right out.
d.) Other than it being just a little wider than my Charter Arms Undercover (About 1/8th inch) and having the 3 inch barrel instead of two, it is just about the same size as the Charter Arms.
e.) The cylinder lock up is very tight on all chambers.
A quick comparison to my old Taurus Model 82 that I've carried since 1992.
You can see the difference in the ejector rod lengths. The Rossi ejector rod is 1", the Taurus' is 1 5/16ths". That extra 5/16ths is enough to fully kick out the shells from the cylinder.
The Taurus cylinder release is much larger, not angled and feels much better under my thumb.
You can look at the hammer and see the main and most important difference. The transfer bar firing pin. The trigger must be pulled completely to the rear to raise the transfer bar up so it can be struck by the hammer transferring the force of the hammer to the internal firing pin.
For a 23 year old revolver with over 10 thousand rounds through it, my Taurus still looks pretty good. I've only had to replace the firing pin and it's spring about 4 years ago, and it's still locks up tight and is accurate. It's been carried in leather holsters in rain, humidity, and it and I once got dunked in the Missouri River during the flood of '93 up in West Alton, just north of St. Louis Mo. I just wished the satin nickle finish was a regularly available option on more firearms.
Next on the agenda for this revolver is to get it to the range and put at least 50 rounds of full power .357 Magnum ammo through it and a hundred or so of .38 Special. Most of the time, this revolver will have .38 Special run through it, but I've always wanted a smaller .357 than my fathers 6 inch Astra .357. Some Pachmayr's and some whiteout to the sights to make them a little easier to pickup in lower light conditions. And removing the "Safety Lock"
I DO realize that Rossi and Taurus don't have the best reputation for quality, however with my own gunsmithing experience, unless it's something radical, I can do most of my own work on this revolver, even making some of the parts.
I will probably look into replacing the cylinder release after I get a set of Pachmayr's on it, and then see how it goes from there.
ETA: to the people asking "Why not just save up and buy a S&W or a Dan Wesson?" Find me one that costs less than $700.00, in good condition, and then we will talk. And I DO NOT want a Large L or N Frame, I specifically wanted a K Frame size. Some people always have to offer up the negatives instead of focusing on the positives. And we wonder why there are flame wars on the Forums.
One of the things I got for myself this year was a firearm type I've wanted for a VERY long time.
I've wanted a 6 shot 3 inch barrel .357 Magnum Revolver for many years. IAMMO had one. A Rossi Model 461, for $279.00. So I jumped on it, and with shipping it cost me $307.00.
After picking it up at my Sooper Sekrit Gunstore, after filling out my Form 4473, getting my NICS Background check and paying my paperwork fee, I brought it home and closely examined it.
This is a preliminary inspection. Granted this is an inexpensive revolver compared to Smith & Wesson, Colt or Dan Wesson, but there are a few issues, which while not a deal breaker, make this particular pistol less appealing to me.
The issues:
a.) It does NOT have a full length ejector rod. That is one of the reasons I wanted a 3 inch barrel. S&W, Colt, Dan Wesson, those have a full length ejector rod on their 3 inch barreled revolvers.
b.) The cylinder pawl is very rough, giving the trigger on double action a gritty feeling, and you can feel the grittiness when hand cocking it for single action.
c.) The Ejector lips for the case rim in 2 of the chambers was so rough that a cartridge could not be fully loaded nor easily ejected.
d.) The hard rubber grips are a bit too small and smooth. I'm concerned about maintaining proper control under full recoil with Magnum loads.
e.) The "Hammer Nose" firing pin. It does have a hammer blocking bar to the prevent the hammer from striking the primer, but I'd prefer the "Transfer Bar" firing pin.
f.) The cylinder release is smaller and angled. It's just a tad small for my liking. I can imagine if my hands are sweaty, my thumb wouldn't fully depress the release fully to open the cylinder.
g.) Hammer safety lock and it's "Key"
The assets:
a.) It IS a 3 inch revolver with a round butt and Pachmayr does make their gripper grips for it. Pachmayr grips are a little "tackier" feeling and should be just a little bit larger than the factory grips.
b.) After working the action a few hundred times after marking the pawl up with a sharpie marker, I was able to smooth the bad parts of the pawl, making the trigger much better and removing most of the grittiness. It will only get better with use.
c.) The ejector lips were smoothed by simply using some fired nickle plated cases, and forcing them in and ejecting them a few dozen times. The fired cases will still slightly stick in those two chambers, but loaded rounds now just fall right out.
d.) Other than it being just a little wider than my Charter Arms Undercover (About 1/8th inch) and having the 3 inch barrel instead of two, it is just about the same size as the Charter Arms.
e.) The cylinder lock up is very tight on all chambers.
A quick comparison to my old Taurus Model 82 that I've carried since 1992.
You can see the difference in the ejector rod lengths. The Rossi ejector rod is 1", the Taurus' is 1 5/16ths". That extra 5/16ths is enough to fully kick out the shells from the cylinder.
The Taurus cylinder release is much larger, not angled and feels much better under my thumb.
You can look at the hammer and see the main and most important difference. The transfer bar firing pin. The trigger must be pulled completely to the rear to raise the transfer bar up so it can be struck by the hammer transferring the force of the hammer to the internal firing pin.
For a 23 year old revolver with over 10 thousand rounds through it, my Taurus still looks pretty good. I've only had to replace the firing pin and it's spring about 4 years ago, and it's still locks up tight and is accurate. It's been carried in leather holsters in rain, humidity, and it and I once got dunked in the Missouri River during the flood of '93 up in West Alton, just north of St. Louis Mo. I just wished the satin nickle finish was a regularly available option on more firearms.
Next on the agenda for this revolver is to get it to the range and put at least 50 rounds of full power .357 Magnum ammo through it and a hundred or so of .38 Special. Most of the time, this revolver will have .38 Special run through it, but I've always wanted a smaller .357 than my fathers 6 inch Astra .357. Some Pachmayr's and some whiteout to the sights to make them a little easier to pickup in lower light conditions. And removing the "Safety Lock"
I DO realize that Rossi and Taurus don't have the best reputation for quality, however with my own gunsmithing experience, unless it's something radical, I can do most of my own work on this revolver, even making some of the parts.
I will probably look into replacing the cylinder release after I get a set of Pachmayr's on it, and then see how it goes from there.
ETA: to the people asking "Why not just save up and buy a S&W or a Dan Wesson?" Find me one that costs less than $700.00, in good condition, and then we will talk. And I DO NOT want a Large L or N Frame, I specifically wanted a K Frame size. Some people always have to offer up the negatives instead of focusing on the positives. And we wonder why there are flame wars on the Forums.
Sunday, March 15, 2015
Had some fun at the range today
Sprog #5/Son #2 and I went to the range today. My main goal was to try out my new to me Charter Arms Undercover, .38 Special. Both 10 yard Pistol lanes were being used so we moseyed on down to the 25 yard Rifle lane. If you count the holes, you will see 36 out of 45 rounds fired hit the target at 25 yards. Now, I'm not THAT bad. My son and I split the shooting duties, and this was the first time he had ever fired a snubbie, and the 2 inch barrel really messed with him. On the other hand, I myself am WOEFULLY out of practice firing revolvers. However the circled holes you see is the last 10 round string he fired from the Undercover. At 25 yards with a 2 inch barrel, that's really not that bad. I did tease him for hitting the ground and totally missing the target a few times with it. But then again, like I said, this is 25 yards, 75 feet, out of a 2 inch .38 Special with factory wood grips.
I already have a set of Pachmayrs on the way for this little pistol, so I expect our next range trip, there will be a marked improvement on the shooting.. Now I just need to locate some more Winchester White Box Standard Velocity ammo. All the rest of my .38 Special ammo is +P's, and for an Undercover of this Vintage, a steady diet of +P ammunition is disrecommended, not to mention painful with factory grips.
And after all, practice is how you make better, to hopefully one day, make "Perfect".
While we were at the range though, I bumped into a GBBL reader, I was trying to give them my blog address, which I admit, is a little long, so I finally asked if they knew of the GBBL. When one of them said yes, I simply said, "I'm GreyLocke" and he knew exactly who I was then. I told him to click on my name over there to go to my profile which lists several of my blogs. So maybe we'll see him comment over here.
Next weekend, weather and my decrepit body permitting, Sprog #6/Son #3 and I are planning on taking the Franken-15 with the Tactical Industries .22 LR adapter back out to the range, and see if we can't use an entire 333 box of Winchester White Box .22 LR. We also might be taking the T-53 out to see how it performs at 200 yards with iron sights. Plus I always take along my Heritage Arms .22 Single Action for good plinking.
And any day you can get a chance to go shooting with your kid, is a Good Day. Even if your shooting did suck.
Thursday, July 25, 2013
Range Report from 7/25/2013
Since I live way out in the county, I can shoot on my property without any legal issues other than being sure I have a good backstop. On the property where my house is, I don't have a backstop, so we only shoot the air rifles here. When I want to shoot the larger calibers I have to either go over to my family's other property about 200 feet away across the back, or drive several miles and pay a range fee. For just plinking or teaching someone how to use a handgun, we just go over to the other property where the back stop is a large drainage ditch that we shoot down in to. That is what I did today.
My daughter's boyfriend Matt has fired a shotgun before but no other types of firearms and he really wants to get a handgun. I'd rather he learn more about firearms in general before he purchases one for himself. So today I loaded up several different types and calibers of handguns a couple rifles and some shotguns to start his firearms education.
First we went over to the property and set up the range.
Several disposable plates with orange stickers from Amazon, such as Carteach discussed on his blog tacked to wood shims then stuck into the ground. Add some 3 liter diet coke bottles filled with water and you have the targets.
The firearms used for the training. Yes there is a .22 Beeman Air rifle there.
I started him off by going over the 4 Rules, and proper handling. Then I discussed proper sight picture.
I started with my Heritage Arms .22 LR Single Action revolver. After 24 rounds over coaching and stressing proper sight use he got a nice target.
He got all 6 on target after his first 24 rounds. Then we moved up to one of my my Taurus 82's.
He figured out how to use the sights properly and to take his time.
Then we moved up to one of my Tokarevs and my FEG.
Shooting the FEG
Shooting the Tokarev
Then I put 3 mags through my FEG. 2 Mags, 14 rounds at one target and 1 mag 7 rounds at another, to check just how accurate I can get with it. We are about 25 feet away from the targets.
Rapid Fire 14 rounds, 1 shot double action the remainder single action. You can see I missed with 1 round and clipped the outside edge of the plate, one of those holes is actually two.
Rapid Fire 7 rounds, 1st round double action the rest single action. Distance 25 feet. I'm pretty sure that one round on the bottom right is my first double action round. I wasn't trying to be super accurate, I was just trying to get all seven on the target as quickly as I could. I think I did ok, so the FEG is now Designated EDC.
I've never claimed to be an expert pistol shot, I'm much better with rifles and shotguns, but those are 9 inch disposable plates at 25 feet. That is Center Mass. I'm happy.
Next up, my daughter wanted to shoot some shotguns and the Sears/Savage .22 Pump rifle. So we got those out.
Here she is with the Maverick 88 with an ATI folding stock so it fits behind the seat of the truck. No Taktikewl attachments, although I might be putting a mount for a Mini-Mag light with a remote touch switch base.
Here I am shooting my Rossi Side by Side 12 Gauge. I LOVE this shotgun. I really need to find a place to learn how to shoot Trap and Skeet. My only complaint is it only has an extractor, not an auto ejector like my other Rossi and my New England Firearms single shots.
Below is a demonstration of Hydrostatic Shock I gave to Matt to explain the lethality of a firearm.
After Matt finished his soda I had him fill it with water, then I used the Sears/Savage .22 Pump to shoot it with 1 round from 25 feet away. This is the result. I explained to Matt, how most of the damage from a bullet is from the Hydrostatic Shock causes damage to the internal organs of the body through the shock wave propagating in the body tearing and damaging blood vessels and organs. He thought the .22 would just punch a hole in the can, not rupture it and send it flying 6 feet. This was not a sealed can of soda, it was just a can we filled with water. So the fluids were not contained, and still the can ruptured.
A weird jam we had today.
Yes that is a Winchester .45 ACP case stuck in the chamber BACKWARDS. A cleaning rod and my daughter Mary's multi-pliers took care of it real quick. and we finished off a 100 round box of Winchester White box.
So today I introduced a young man to shooting, the 4 Rules and how to correct a Malf in the field.
Now I just need to get him some more practice as the ammo situation allows before he decides which firearm he buys for himself.
Any day I can go out and shoot with my daughter and help someone else on the road to responsible Firearms Ownership is a Good Day.
My daughter's boyfriend Matt has fired a shotgun before but no other types of firearms and he really wants to get a handgun. I'd rather he learn more about firearms in general before he purchases one for himself. So today I loaded up several different types and calibers of handguns a couple rifles and some shotguns to start his firearms education.
First we went over to the property and set up the range.
The firearms used for the training. Yes there is a .22 Beeman Air rifle there.
I started him off by going over the 4 Rules, and proper handling. Then I discussed proper sight picture.
I started with my Heritage Arms .22 LR Single Action revolver. After 24 rounds over coaching and stressing proper sight use he got a nice target.
He got all 6 on target after his first 24 rounds. Then we moved up to one of my my Taurus 82's.
He figured out how to use the sights properly and to take his time.
Then we moved up to one of my Tokarevs and my FEG.
Shooting the FEG
Shooting the Tokarev
Then I put 3 mags through my FEG. 2 Mags, 14 rounds at one target and 1 mag 7 rounds at another, to check just how accurate I can get with it. We are about 25 feet away from the targets.
Rapid Fire 14 rounds, 1 shot double action the remainder single action. You can see I missed with 1 round and clipped the outside edge of the plate, one of those holes is actually two.
Rapid Fire 7 rounds, 1st round double action the rest single action. Distance 25 feet. I'm pretty sure that one round on the bottom right is my first double action round. I wasn't trying to be super accurate, I was just trying to get all seven on the target as quickly as I could. I think I did ok, so the FEG is now Designated EDC.
I've never claimed to be an expert pistol shot, I'm much better with rifles and shotguns, but those are 9 inch disposable plates at 25 feet. That is Center Mass. I'm happy.
Next up, my daughter wanted to shoot some shotguns and the Sears/Savage .22 Pump rifle. So we got those out.
Here she is with the Maverick 88 with an ATI folding stock so it fits behind the seat of the truck. No Taktikewl attachments, although I might be putting a mount for a Mini-Mag light with a remote touch switch base.
Here I am shooting my Rossi Side by Side 12 Gauge. I LOVE this shotgun. I really need to find a place to learn how to shoot Trap and Skeet. My only complaint is it only has an extractor, not an auto ejector like my other Rossi and my New England Firearms single shots.
Below is a demonstration of Hydrostatic Shock I gave to Matt to explain the lethality of a firearm.
After Matt finished his soda I had him fill it with water, then I used the Sears/Savage .22 Pump to shoot it with 1 round from 25 feet away. This is the result. I explained to Matt, how most of the damage from a bullet is from the Hydrostatic Shock causes damage to the internal organs of the body through the shock wave propagating in the body tearing and damaging blood vessels and organs. He thought the .22 would just punch a hole in the can, not rupture it and send it flying 6 feet. This was not a sealed can of soda, it was just a can we filled with water. So the fluids were not contained, and still the can ruptured.
A weird jam we had today.
Yes that is a Winchester .45 ACP case stuck in the chamber BACKWARDS. A cleaning rod and my daughter Mary's multi-pliers took care of it real quick. and we finished off a 100 round box of Winchester White box.
So today I introduced a young man to shooting, the 4 Rules and how to correct a Malf in the field.
Now I just need to get him some more practice as the ammo situation allows before he decides which firearm he buys for himself.
Any day I can go out and shoot with my daughter and help someone else on the road to responsible Firearms Ownership is a Good Day.
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